Mr. Mills Here is a link from Vern Gambetta. http://www.gambetta.com/articles/a97005.html Vern Gambetta says there is nothing more specific than throwing a baseball, even if it’s under weight or over weight. What about girl softball players throwing 6 oz. softballs??? They don’t blow out their shoulders any more than guys do playing baseball. What about the training principles; which states that the body must be subjected to a greater stress for it to become stronger. And, if this is true then wouldn’t throwing heavier balls prevent laxity?? Because one of the reasons shoulder laxity happens is a result of a weak shoulder complex and poor mechanics. I am trying to be as concise and factaully accurate as possible. Why doesn’t anyone here accpet this as a training method? I don’t get it, it’s not a magic bullet, no one ever said it was, and the fact that you say that Mr. Mills is disheartening, because I NEVER SAID THAT. I just wish people would be willing to open their freaking eyes. [This message has been edited by Sabinobaseball (edited June 20, 2001).]
Thanks Woody for the comments.
SilatGuy I think that we could say I’ve gone through a maturation process of sorts and have changed a little. I don’t know how else to explain that.
I would like to add some more to this if I could. Silatguy “The upside potential does not outweigh the downside risk.” What?!?!?!?! Here is a quote from the ASMI that disproves what you say completely: “Two studies examined how a warm-up with overweight baseballs affected throwing velocity and accuracy of 5 oz regulation baseballs. One of these studies showed significant increases in throwing velocity and accuracy, while the other study found no significant differences.” So, I really don’t see any proof that says they hurt accuracy, on the contrary, one of the studies showed they increase velocity and accuracy. Also from the ASMI study: “Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs. Since no injuries were reported throughout the training studies, throwing overweight and underweight baseballs may not be more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing regulation baseballs.” No injuries reported, so how can we say that over/under training increases the risk of injury??? I mean, this is 12 weeks of throwing over/under weight balls and no ones arm was blown out. Ron Harvot What type of program were you on when you engaged in the throwing of weighted balls. Were you just “wingin it” or actually following something??
Everyone I will inform all of you on how my training goes when spring comes around. I too hope it goes as I plan. I think it will, I’m planning on working out 3-4 hours 4-5 days a week, with the over/under training included. Believe me, I’m going to be as safe as I possibly can, it’s not like I’m going into this completely blind and full bore. I hope that we all can learn from this, I know I have. Matt The point I’m trying to make is that I’m not going to be PITCHING with over/under weighted balls, I will be throwing them. There is quite a bit of difference. [This message has been edited by Sabinobaseball (edited June 20, 2001).]
EFFECTS OF THROWING OVERWEIGHT AND UNDERWEIGHT BASEBALLS ON THROWING VELOCITY AND ACCURACY Rafael F. Escamilla1, Ph.D., Glenn S. Fleisig2, Ph.D., Steven W. Barrentine2, M.S., James R. Andrews2, M.D., and Kevin P. Speer, M.D. 1Michael W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory Division of Orthopaedic Surgery Duke University Medical Center Durham, NC, 27710 American Sports Medicine Institute Birmingham, AL 35205 Throwing Overweight and Underweight Baseballs September 3, 1999 SPORTS MEDICINE Here’s the abstract from the paper; Abstract The purpose of this review was to determine how throwing overweight and underweight baseballs affects baseball throwing velocity and accuracy. Two studies examined how a warm-up with overweight baseballs affected throwing velocity and accuracy of 5 oz regulation baseballs. One of these studies showed significant increases in throwing velocity and accuracy, while the other study found no significant differences. Three training studies (6-12 weeks in duration) using overweight baseballs were conducted to determine how they affected ball accuracy while throwing regulation baseballs. No significant differences were found in any study. From these data it concluded that warming up or training with overweight baseballs does not improve ball accuracy. Seven overweight and four underweight training studies (6 – 12 weeks in duration) were conducted to determine how throwing velocity of regulation baseballs was affected due to training with these overweight and underweight baseballs. The overweight baseballs ranged in weight between 5.25-17 oz, while the underweight baseballs were between 4-4.75 oz. Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs. Since no injuries were reported throughout the training studies, throwing overweight and underweight baseballs may not be more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing regulation baseballs. However, since currently there are no injury data related to throwing overweight and underweight baseballs, this should be the focus of subsequent studies. In addition, research should be initiated to determine whether throwing kinematics and kinetics are different between throwing regulation baseballs and throwing overweight and underweight baseballs. Food for thought. Tell me what you think.
Everyone Has it ever been proven that over/under training affects control and/or command adversely? The fact that it has been stated that the affects of this type of training do not last seem’s like propoganda. Say you can sqaut 500 lbs. It has taken you 2 years of training 3 days a week for you to reach this point. Then, stop squatting for 2 years. Will the affects last???? NO!!! If you continue to throw you will not lose the velocity you gained. Common sense people. I am trying to be as cordial and nice about this as possible but it’s hard because I believe in this so much and it seems like everyone here seems to turn away from the facts. So, all I’m asking id for everyone to be more open minded about this. Forget conventional wisdom just for this debate, then it will really start to open some eyes.
I too think this is a great discussion. I can’t add more now because I have a game but more is coming later. Have a good night. Clark
MENeely Would you agree with me that when the body engages in physical activity in order to save energy the body uses as many slow twitch muscle fibers as possible. You have to recruit fast twitch muscle fibers in order to throw hard. To get to a point where we can “put it on auto-pilot” in games we have to want to throw hard each and every throw in our throwing sessions. You can’t say to yourself “I’m not going to throw hard” and magically throw hard because you mechanics are perfect. You need to recruit those fast twitch muscle fibers. That is a huge part in throwing hard. And who says you can’t try to throw hard without control. Also, who says if you try to throw hard your grio will be tighter? What is that based on? Can that be proven?? Throwing with near maximum and maximum effort with control can be done, why limit ourselves??? It’s like saying, don’t weight train because doing it wrong will adversely affect your performance. Well duh guys, train right and smart and it will work. Mr. Mills In my observations, most Major League teams draft righties with fastballs 90+ and lefties with 85+ fastballs. What is the average fastball of the righthanded draft pick and the lefthanded draftee?? The strength and conditioning coaches are trying to maintain performace and their INVESTMENTS. I wholeheartedly a**it, there is a greater risk of doing over/under training than typical strength and functional training, but no one, until recently, has figured out how to train with and over/under program correctly. If I am a GM I’m telling my strength guys, just maintain what these guys have, do not push it, we spend too much money to risk it. I would disagree with you on the point you made about High School and College kids using an over/under program. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Pro guys have everything to lose and much less to gain than high school and college kids. Would you rather be playing pro ball or NO BALL AT ALL??? Also, I think we all know old habits and trains of thought die hard. If Major League Organizations are just coming up with better and better conditioning programs and continue to do them over longer periods of time it’s going to be tougher and tougher for these teams to accpet over/under training. What for, less guys getting injured, maintained performance, longer careers, ect. But, it’s been proven these things work. Until someone “high profile” in the MLB strength and conditioning community steps up and starts using an over/under program no one is going to “risk it.” About the lefty that was “throwing 95.” I honestly never remember seeing his “trainer” say he was throwing 95. Besides, this lefty who was throwing 86-88, was throwing 78-80 before he started an over/under program. That’s a 10 mph gain in one off-season. Was that from growing???? I doubt it. And, he has a scholarship now to play baseball at a D1 college. Who’s to say he won’t be drafted eventually. A lefty who throw’s 86-88 and stand’s to gain more velocity and control is a hot commodity. Anyway, we will see. Bascially what I am saying is that over/under training has been proven to work, has never been proven to affect control or command(look at Nolan Ryan, he threw a football which weighs more than a baseball and his control seemed fine), and I have never seen anything that shows that an over/under program increases the risk of injury. So, what’s the deal?????????????
Mr. Mills I am entertaining the idea of using over weighted balls and under weighted, not just one or the other, like the study you presented only shows what happened when each group used an over weight ball and a reg. ball and then an under weight ball and reg. ball, and then of course the control group. Plus, none of the students in the study in either of the groups were involved in any type of training. So, I think that would suggest that an even greater increase in velocity can be reached if you are training during this period. I will be backw with more later, I have to go get my glove re-strung.
Ok, im glad we can work together on this. My working fastball right now is 78-82. I top out at 83. I don’t understand why you can’t work on arm strength and core strength for more velocity at the same time? In fact I do med ball work 4 days a week, so it’s not I like arm strength is the only thing I am focusing on. Right now I’m planning on doing this when fall ball is done. I don’t have the logistics and I most certainly DO NOT plan on stopping my training routine. I am saying this could be like am supplement to everyting. I just used 5-7 mph as a shot in the dark. I really don’t know how much these things will help or hurt me, but there is enough reseacrh out there that shows that they can help velocity by 5 mph or even more.
Bradley I saw the posting on this “other” site about the kid who did injure himself using this method of training(scapula loading, weighted balls, ect.). My take on this is how do we know exactly what caused his injury? There are thousands of questions I can come up regarding his injury. Basically we don’t really know all the facts here so you and I, or anyone can’t really make an informed decision about what the cause of his injury really was. Could it have been the weighted balls or scapula loading? The answer to this is certainly it could have. But, could it have been one hundred other things that aren’t realted to the weighted balls and scapula loading? The answer to this is absolutely. Also, about that pitcher who was presumed to throw low nineties. Again, we do not know all the facts regarding this matter so would it be smart for us to come to a decision regarding why this pitcher was not throwing with optimum control and/or velocity during his season. The answer to this is NO WAY. Just as it is blatantly wrong for anyone to jump to conclusions about Ryan Mills and his situation. So, as you can see, there are 2 sides to every coin. Throwing over/under balls for training over a certain period of time(10-12 weeks) has been shown to increase velocity by 4-5 mph. There have not been studies that show that they increase the risk of injury. And, there are no studies that show if they last, but to me, if you keep throwing a baseball I do not see whay they wouldn’t last? If you can prove me wrong, please do. About your question regarding where to fit weighted balls into a rigorous summer schedule; I wouldn’t reccomend that at all, nor would anyone else, so I would say do not throw them during your season. I too have a rigorous summer schedule like your sons where I am pitching every 4-5 days. I am training at the Diamondbacks facility down here 4 days a week for 2-3 hours a day. There, we are on a long toss program right now before every workout. I am working harder now than I ever have in my life. That is because my goal of playing baseball for many more years at a high level is coming closer to a crossroads. I am looking for every edge possible, and I am looking at everything now from an objective point of view. In the past I have not looked at things that way, I will a**it it, but at least I do a**it it. I do see why you would never want your son to pick up any ball above or under 5 oz. to throw with any type of force. But I also see why it could be beneficial. Mr. Mills Right now at this very moment my mechanics are very solid, and my conditioning is better than it has ever been, a great thanks in part to you and Ginny and the Diamondbacks Minor League Strength guy. I wikk answer your questions the best I can. 1. I think mastering mechanics is something I am coming closer to and closer to every day. I am not there yet, but soon I will be. 2. I would say I am at 60%. 3. I would say about 60% with the 2 seamer 4. The change-up has been a problem for some time now. I throw it in every throwing session I have and every time I seem to come away from each throwing session much better with it, yet it remains inconsistent. I think the main reason is because I have small hands. Though I know what a weapon a change-up can be, so I will continue to work on it with great conviction. 5. My curve is very good, and I can locate it about 50% of the time. 6. Pitching inside is something I think I have mastered and enjoy very very much. 7. My strikeout to walk ratio is about 2.5:1 so it is not 4:1 yet. 8. I am averaging about 14 pitches per inning 9. I wouldn’t really know, as I have not been a “stud” since I was 12 in little league so I don’t have a big reputation. 10. I don’t think most big leaguers could say they have mastered the strategy of pitching and the mental part of the game, though I do love the mental mastery program and work it religiously. Again, I wouldn’t know if I am considered mentally tough by the hitters in my league, I think they are thinking about getting hits off of me, not whether I am mentally tough. From my observations on the mound it is becoming more apparent that hitters are uncomfortable in the box against me and I am NOT a master at changing speeds. I don’t think that working with over/under balls will add 1-3 mph, I think they can be of much more benefit, like maybe 5-7 mph. Of course the big variable is how hard I am willing to work. That, to me, is the great thing about it, because I am willing to do anything and everything to become a great pitcher. It has been my dream since I was 4 years old and was first introduced to baseball. NOTHING WILL STOP ME FROM REALIZING MY DREAM, NOTHING!!! I can tell you honestly that without you and your program I wouldn’t be where I am today. I can not thank you and Ginny enough. Honestly I like you and this site a lot Mr. Mills, it’s just I think that over/under training can help when it’s apart of a TOTAL training program. I hope this doesn’t change anything.
Ok, I think here, we all should support a more open minded policy. This should be a place for anyone and everyone to come and talk pitching, no matter what the topic, whether it be weighted balls or pushing/pulling or training or anything. What I am getting at here is I think banning people for posting thier e-mails is not the best way to go, and Mr. Mills I may be wrong, it is your site, but I like to talk with people via e-mail and instant messaging. Though I do feel at times you have to ban someone for their blatent disrespect ie PlatinumPitcher34. The issue of over/under training has intrigued me for some time, but I have shunned it becuase it has been said that it causes injuries. Yet I have seen studies that prove over/under training can increase performance. Granted these studies are only 10-12 weeks the thought that the affects wouldn’t last, to me, is somewhat childish. If you keep throwing there is no logical reason why the affects woudln’t last. And, there are no studies to prove that they casue injury so I hope you can see where I am coming from. I am not saying that over/under training is a magic bullet or anything else is, I am saying that if they apart of a complete training program it seems that they could increase performance. Anyway I hope to get all your opinions on this because I respect each and every person’s opinion here in the customer forum. Clark [This message has been edited by Dick Mills (edited June 16, 2001).]
Bryan I remember reading a study about basketball players and certain types of training to increase their vertical. This is what I remember about it: Players who did jump squats with 30% of their 1RM increased their vertical by 19% over a 12 week period, if I remember correctly. Players who performed “heavy”(see my definition of heavy in my reply to you in the public forum) squats and maxed out on certain training days only increased their vertical by 5% over the 12 week period. So, I think this tells us that to increase explosiveness we should do the jump squats withe the 30% of our 1RM. Of course, you still want to do lunges, step ups, and your other lower body exercises, but I think this is quite interesting about the jump squats. PS: I will try and get that study for you. Clark
Definitely, as long as it doesn’t interfere with your normal workouts, throwing, and working on your mechanics. I say go for it.